George R.R. Martin speaks on his AI lawsuit: “We need rules for all of this” (Exclusive)

As a seasoned writer and observer of the ever-evolving world of entertainment, I find myself deeply intrigued by the intersection of art and artificial intelligence. George R.R. Martin, with his illustrious career spanning over five decades, offers a fascinating perspective on this topic.

As a creative enthusiast, I can’t help but notice the ripples that generative AI is making across various artistic realms today. Whether I’m an actor, artist, writer, musician, or video game creator, it seems like every field that nurtures creativity is grappling with this burgeoning technology—and particularly so with the companies driving its development.

Recently, I was fortunate enough to interview George R.R. Martin, the acclaimed author of “A Song of Ice and Fire,” during his trip to Glasgow, Scotland for the 82nd World Science Fiction Convention. During our conversation, we touched on various subjects, but given that we were at a writing-centric event, it seemed fitting to delve into some hurdles faced by emerging writers. Among these challenges, none is more daunting than the impact of AI, which has transformed the writing industry significantly. This transformation can be seen in various aspects such as journalists losing their jobs due to chatbots taking over, publishers inserting AI training clauses into book deals, and even renowned magazines like “Clarkesworld” being bombarded with AI-generated story submissions.

For Martin, AI isn’t just an abstract concern; he’s one of 17 prominent writers involved in a class-action lawsuit against ChatGPT creator OpenAI, led by The Author’s Guild. According to The Hollywood Reporter, the suit claims that OpenAI is systematically infringing on copyrights on a large scale to fuel their profitable business. This issue is so pressing that it surfaced in our discussion multiple times, which is why I was curious about Martin’s views, particularly regarding book publishing.

He stated, “The Author’s Guild is currently taking legal action against OpenAI, and I am one of the parties involved in this lawsuit. In discussions with the guild’s lawyers and fellow plaintiffs, we don’t foresee AI being banned entirely. New technology can’t be outlawed, as people have learned throughout history. However, the issue at hand is not whether AI will persist, but rather what kind of regulatory framework will be implemented? What guidelines or rules will there be? For instance, if a book is used to train AI, should the author have the right to approve its use? Should the author hold some control over it? Would the author receive any compensation from it?

The question of income is a big one, both for the creatives trying to grapple with this new technology as well as the companies selling it. Earlier this year, OpenAI stated in a filing to British Parliament that “it would be impossible to train today’s leading AI models without using copyrighted materials.” So in essence, companies that build AI generators like predictive text Large Language Models (LLMs) need these copyrighted works for their tech to function, but have so far managed to avoid paying out for their commercial use of them.

As Martin put it, when it comes to AI, it’s not about honing the skills of one writer or relying on a single book. Instead, they’re tapping into roughly 10,000 books for training. However, I can’t help but wonder if each of these 10,000 authors will receive some form of compensation – be it a few cents, a dollar, or even $100. If the figure is closer to $100, it might just become the new standard for royalties; writers creating books that eventually contribute to this massive AI entity, either by their original works or granting permission. But here’s the thing – I have no idea what the rules will be. If there are no rules in place, and AI companies can essentially help themselves to anything they desire without consequence, then we might be facing a serious issue. After all, unlike AI, human authors need to eat, pay bills, and sometimes even buy a house. So, some kind of guidelines or regulations are crucial to prevent potential misuse.

The most “immediate crisis” for regulating AI lies with actors and artists

The advancement of AI technologies isn’t limited to posing a risk only for writers; it also threatens several other creative professionals. Initially, Martin and I focused on how this technology impacts authors, but our discussion quickly expanded beyond that scope. In essence, it seems to me that the situation is particularly pressing for actors and artists at present. To put it simply, artists are already feeling the impact with AI-generated book covers.

For actors, first of all there’s the lower level actors, the extras. We have a friend who, last time we were in Atlanta, we went to a company and they scanned them. They had one of these new 360 degree camera things, and he stood in the middle of it and turned this way and that way, and they scanned him from every angle, from up above, down and around. And I think they had him sign that you get $200 as an extra…so, $200 and now they own those images for all time. And he can be used as an extra in 10,000 movies, they can put him in a Roman toga, they can put him in a Nazi uniform, they can add a rubber nose to him and a bunch of floppy shoes and say he’s a clown in a circus movie, over and over and over again…and they paid him $200, that’s all they’ll get.

The controversial practice of scanning actor’s likenesses for ongoing use was brought to public attention during the SAG-AFTRA strike last year. At that time, the Hollywood actors union revealed that many members had experienced studios trying to capture their appearances indefinitely. In 2023, it was calculated that around 20% of SAG-AFTRA’s total membership (approximately 32,000 out of 160,000) had acted as background performers in the previous year, which is a significant portion of the union.

Martin proposed an idea, “Extras are in the same position as big-name actors,” he said. “I’m just wondering how many more years Harrison Ford can play Indiana Jones? It seems the poor performance of the last film might suggest a limit. But suppose we could cast Harrison Ford, but instead of using the real Harrison, we use an AI version of him? And here’s another thought: my next movie might feature young versions of Marilyn Monroe and Errol Flynn.

It transpires that Hollywood has taken a leading role, as in the movie Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny, they employed an innovative approach to de-aging Harrison Ford’s character. Although he performed the scenes himself, a digital overlay was later applied to his face to make him seem younger. This issue of actors’ rights, whereby companies can’t replicate their likenesses entirely without consent, has been a crucial aspect of SAG-AFTRA’s demands during the strike and will probably remain a significant concern until a balance is found.

Martin expressed the need for guidelines regarding the situation at hand, adding that their lawsuit is proceeding as planned. He clarified that this legal action is primarily aimed at the authors, but there are other lawsuits being filed by various individuals which may also involve actors, illustrators, and similar parties. In essence, he described a rapidly changing landscape, expressing uncertainty about who will emerge victorious and what the eventual rules will be.

Progress and persistence in the age of AI

On August 15th, a group of artists scored a significant win in their class-action lawsuit against Stable Diffusion, the makers of Midjourney, Stability A.I., DeviantArt, and Runway A.I. – an AI image generator. The judge agreed that there’s evidence suggesting these tools might have been constructed using copyrighted works, and were designed to facilitate copyright infringement. This legal battle for copyright violations is now progressing, and it could potentially set a precedent in the ongoing debate about Artificial Intelligence and its relationship with intellectual property rights.

Martin has been engaged with the debate surrounding AI and writing, but this isn’t his first encounter with change in the publishing industry. George R.R. Martin’s career dates back to the 70s, over half a century ago. Does he offer any insights for budding writers who worry about how AI might impact their profession?

“You gotta keep apprised of this stuff,” he said. “So maybe they should start going to Worldcons and other things, and know what’s happening in the business. And you know, the real thing is to persist. I’ve been very lucky in some ways, but even with my luck, my career has crashed and burned twice. Once around 1984 with Armageddon Rag, and then I did the whole television thing for a decade, but then it crashed and burned again in like 1994 when my television show was canceled and I couldn’t get another job. Fortunately, I had this idea for this Game of Thrones thing that worked out.”

Look forward to our upcoming full interview with George R.R. Martin – it’s just around the corner! In the meantime, we have a sneak peek for you, so stay tuned for more updates in the coming days.

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2024-09-11 17:41