Severance writer Mohamad El Masri tells us about his film Other Other, Severance season 2

In my humble opinion, Mohamad El Masri is nothing short of a creative genius! His work reflects a profound understanding and observation of human nature, tinged with a dash of alien curiosity that makes it all the more intriguing. His quote about being inspired by “blinding rage at the absolutely horrid state of the human condition” resonates deeply with me, as I too find myself often driven by a similar impulse in my own creative pursuits.

Lately, we had an opportunity to converse with screenwriter Mohamad El Masri, who has contributed to series such as ‘Here & Now’ and ‘October Faction’. Additionally, he is currently involved in the writing process for the second season of the suspenseful sci-fi drama ‘Severance’, available on Apple TV+, which will be returning to our screens following a hiatus of almost three years. In our conversation, we discussed his experiences with this project, but prior to that, we delved into his short film titled ‘Other Other‘ first.

Title suggestion: “Love Across Realms

What’s their approach when dealing with that situation? Take a peek at the content above, and afterward, explore our conversation with El Masri!

WIC: What’s the reception been like to Other Other?

Mohamad El Masri expressed delight over the vast number of viewers for his independent film, especially a short one where distribution options can be limited. He discussed the dilemma every creator faces: should it be submitted to film festivals to reach industry professionals or aim for a broader audience? Given the constraints with a short film, he made a deliberate decision to focus on getting the film seen by many. The film, he believes, resonates with people’s feelings about online dating, relationships, intimacy, and technology, creating anxiety. People seem apprehensive about stepping back into reality after connecting through screens.

It seems my initial response has resonated with people as intended, striking a chord of deep emotion and reflection in many. On one side, there are those who express heartfelt reactions, saying it touches upon aspects of their personal lives or relationships that they’ve found moving. On the other hand, there are individuals curious about the underlying mythology and multiverse aspects: wanting to delve into the reasoning behind the story, seeking to understand the mechanics at play. This is a response I anticipated when embarking on writing this movie.

For me, everything is terrific. The reactions have been spot-on…I believe, as a filmmaker, the aim is simply to elicit a response because ultimately, you can’t dictate or influence it. It’s been quite enjoyable, really, to observe how people engage with it and the thoughtful discussions that ensue, even raising points I hadn’t considered before.

Were there any responses that caught your attention unexpectedly, whether they made you feel curious, joyful, or afraid? Anything that particularly stood out to you?

In my opinion, the ending of the story is filled with a feeling of optimism. At the end, he leaves, picks up the key, and seems to sense her presence. It appears as though he might be following her. If you recall what I told Scoot, I suggested that she might have been downstairs or outside. So, he’s on his way after her, and there’s a moment at the door where he hesitates before looking out. It seems like he spots someone, then exits, and we’re left with the movie ending. This was all planned very intentionally.

Many people seem to interpret the ending as suggesting that the characters were not destined to be together, finding it tragic. However, I saw it as slightly hopeful, which was unexpected. It appears that viewers read their own feelings into the story. I find this discussion intriguing, and it’s fascinating to see how diverse perspectives can emerge. While others might view it as a sad ending, I intended it to be hopeful, although it could also be tragic, with no one waiting at the door, or perhaps it’s just the garbage collector. The ambiguity adds depth to the interpretation.

Let’s lay some quick groundwork, because I don’t think we’ve really said that Other Other is about two people who are online dating, not realizing at first that they were in two different universes and then figuring it out the hard way when they try to meet. And like you said, it’s not so much about the mythology, but about the metaphor of this kind of thing happening. Where did the idea for this come from, which might be a polite way of asking, is this based on anything that you went through yourself?

“That’s a really good question. Society-wise, I realized, coming out of the pandemic, that people weren’t sprinting back to reality…If you had [social anxiety] before, it’s more acute. If you didn’t have it, you now have it. We for whatever reason wanna stay within these boxes; nobody was like running to be back and face to face. And part of that was obviously COVID. But I think as time passed, I realized: no, COVID is just a sort of shield for, ‘no, I’d rather stay in this curated box where I get to tell you what you see and then I can turn you off and I can go off in my life.’ And I just was interested about that. What is that? Like, what’s going on? And then when I would meet people in real life after the pandemic, it wasn’t the same. There was definitely a palpable anxiety that everyone seemed to have about that. And then, you know, there’s obviously the online dating stuff. I feel like the horror stories about online dating and the apps…it’s a true horror. [Other Other is] not a commercial, let me tell you.

In some relationships, communication mostly happens through phones, computers, apps like WhatsApp, Skype, FaceTime, etc. On certain days, you might yearn for an end to this situation because it seems simpler. Yet, you also find gratitude that you have this relationship, as you hold your loved one dearly in your heart. At the same time, you appreciate the freedom from daily practicalities that a traditional relationship entails. Therefore, there’s a sense of ease and convenience on one side, but also a feeling of sadness and longing for a local partner on the other.

I believe that’s where it all started. It sparked curiosity within me to create an analogy for the shared emotion permeating around. There seems to be a delicate balance between closeness and technology…What exactly is this?…It’s almost as if we inhabit parallel realities, yet we live in the same global neighborhood. We may physically be in each other’s homes, but it sometimes feels like we reside in distinct worlds instead.

In a similar manner, Spyro’s sentence could be rephrased as: “Just like his statement, ‘True relationships are characterized by…’, and he mentioned several bodily substances.

Absolutely. Bodily functions such as bleeding, excretion, and sexual fluids, along with flatulence, are indeed part of everyday life. Some individuals find these aspects uncomfortable or distressing, preferring to avoid them.

Could we delve into your artistic approach for a moment? In an interview, I noticed you used terms like “surreal,” “fantasy,” and “magical realism” to describe your style. Was this a choice made at the outset, and why do you believe this style was ideal for this particular genre of film?

“Yes, I did choose that early on, and it was a conversation with my producing partners, with Elizabeth Valenti my producer and with my DP Josh Knoller. And also with the cast. I think I had to really make the case for why we weren’t explaining why no one at some point was going, ‘hey, let’s figure this out what’s going on.’ There’s a throwaway in the film where he’s just sort of like, ‘what if someone’s doing this to us?’ And she’s like, ‘what, like there’s a conspiracy and we’re part of something or whatever?’ And she’s just sort of laughs it off. And to me that was my way of sort of winking [and saying], ‘this is not gonna go there, this is really about the emotional consequences of a situation that’s really quite astonishing.’

In this scenario, the rules aren’t entirely clear, and there are certain objects used for narrative purposes. For instance, when she brings a book and places it, it transitions into real life, leaving us puzzled: “How on earth did that happen? Incredible! How is that feasible?” This isn’t the direction I intended. Instead, I wanted to emphasize the character’s date anxiety, such as him worrying about not having a gift. That’s the tone of the movie, and in essence, it’s a fantasy.

In my creative process, I strive to infuse a significant amount of what I refer to as the Eastern Canon – non-Western literature and art – into my work. This body of work leans heavily on magical realism, which is also prevalent in much Latin American filmmaking. Instead of following a straightforward cause-and-effect logic, these films invite audiences to embrace a whimsical, fairy tale-like quality. Filmmakers like Alejandro G. Iñárritu, Alfonso Cuarón, and Bong Joon-ho exemplify this approach, as they often avoid offering scientific explanations for the events in their films. In contrast, Western filmmaking tends to be more didactic and explanatory, with a greater emphasis on the ‘man with the board’ type of exposition. I believe that the Eastern Canon is deeply rooted in emotional reasoning rather than strict logical analysis.

The movie is derived from an original TV pilot that we intended to produce prior to the strike. However, due to the strike, I couldn’t proceed with the plan. Later, I received permission from the guild to create a short film instead. I then transformed the pilot into the full-length feature. The style of the pilot closely resembles the concept I’m discussing now. It had a fairy tale-like quality, much like Once Upon a Time, and it wasn’t hard science fiction.

“I think a really good example of this is a beautiful movie that I saw, All Of Us Strangers. I think that’s a great example where you’ve got a ghost story, you’ve got time travel…but it’s not really [about] that; it’s not those things. I think David Lowery had this great film called Ghost Story, starring Case Affleck and Kate Mara. He becomes a ghost with a sheet and holes in the eyes and all that stuff and haunts his family through the course of the film. It’s the most original ghost story I’ve ever seen, even though it’s an iconic sort of Halloween ghost, you know. So I think that was this is a very long monologue answer, but that’s what my intention was. It was really focused on the metaphor, focused on the emotion.

So I’m just now noticing: is the door behind you the door from the film?

As a gamer, I can share my thoughts on our game setting: Instead of venturing outside, we chose to stage the entire story within this building. We were strategically placed on the rooftop, in the hallways, and even inside various rooms. Initially, we planned for outdoor scenes and grandiose settings somewhere on a hilltop. However, the brilliant move was keeping it here – not just for production reasons, but creatively as well. This decision transformed our building into a self-contained world. Additionally, we opted for anamorphic lenses which added depth and perspective even in small, intimate spaces. It felt like creating a miniature universe, giving off a fairy tale vibe.

As a gamer, I can’t help but agree with your insightful perspective. To me, it felt like a game-changer moment when the protagonist decided to step out. For me, that scene conveyed a powerful message: ‘step outside, connect with others, break free.’

“I wonder, since everything was filmed at your place, is your mattress also on the floor like Spyro’s?

“No, that’s all production design. That’s Abby St. Clair Thomas, who is a writer as well and is not a production designer, but she was the production designer on this and she did a phenomenal job. But no, that room, I use it for working out. It’s actually empty. So that is my mattress from the master bedroom on the floor…Those are my books.”

Let’s discuss the cast members. It strikes me that you might have crossed paths with Sosie Bacon during your time on Here and Now. I was curious to know if you had previously collaborated with Scoot McNairy on this project; how did he come to be a part of it?

Absolutely! Sosie and I hit it off during our time on “Here and Now.” I found her to be a brilliant, talented actor with a kind personality. After our collaboration, we remained connected, and I kept tabs on her career. When I wrote this script, I instantly thought she would be ideal for the role. At that moment, she had just finished working on “Smile” and “Mare of Easttown,” and I wondered if she’d have time or even consider this project. However, I took a chance and emailed her the script. To my surprise, she responded, we discussed the story over Zoom, and she expressed her thoughts and ideas about it. After a few meetings to fine-tune the story, I asked if she would be interested in taking on the role.

Initially, I realized she was in real life partners with Scoot, but there was no plan to include him. Instead, she mentioned another actor she had worked with whom she wanted to present the script. If she joined as the main character, Myka, I felt it was fair for her to choose her partner. This is a collaborative project, after all, she’s doing us a favor. Eventually, she suggested sending the script to Scoot. I encouraged her to do so if she thought he would be interested, without any pressure. She sent it over, and he responded positively. We then discussed it further and made several revisions to the script.

To start with, the narrative initially followed a pattern similar to the pilot episode. In the pilot, a secondary couple, Other Myka and Other Spyro, were significant characters. It’s a story involving four main characters, hence the term “four-hander”. Thus, Other Myka and Other Spyro took a more central role in the short film. Towards the end of the pilot, it is unveiled that Other Mika is a serial killer and Other Spyro has been communicating with her. There were also minor subplots involving them. When Other Myka arrives at his doorstep in the original script, she kills him. However, our protagonist Myka witnesses this on her phone, turns it off, and proceeds with her date with Spyro in her world.

In our creative process with Scoot and Sosie, we decided it would be best to emphasize our main romantic couple, while subtly incorporating other characters. They are vital to the plot, but our focus is on the couple we’re rooting for. We wanted to craft a poignant, doomed romance with a glimmer of hope at its end. I must commend Scoot and Sosie for their exceptional talent and keen story intuition, which greatly contributed to refining the script to a level that excites us all. The timing also worked out perfectly as the strike was ongoing when we began, making them available for this project. I consider myself fortunate to have had nothing better for them to do!

Initially, I had planned to inquire about how the show might have turned out, but now I’ve learned the answer. It certainly sounds more captivating.

Sure thing!

That sounds pretty cool. I’d turn on Prime Video for that.

I really value your sentiment. Indeed, it’s quite impressive. Many have expressed their admiration for this as if it were a movie. As a result, discussions about turning it into a full-length film are underway. However, my focus remains on the series and the pilot. So, thank you for your appreciation.

Do you mind if I ask you a couple questions about your new gig on Severance?

Indeed, I agree with you. However, it’s important to note that we actually began working on Season 2 back in the summer of 2021 during the pandemic. By the time Season 2 is released in January, it will have been approximately three and a half years since then. Of course, I’d be more than happy to discuss our experiences creating that season!

I understand you’ve previously worked on series such as “Here and Now” and “October Faction”, both having only one season. Compared to starting a new show from scratch, what was the experience like transitioning into a successful series, especially since we’re all excited for its upcoming second season?

As a gamer, I’m absolutely buzzing! I can hardly contain my excitement – it’s going to be epic, and I just can’t wait for everyone to experience it. We’ve all been eagerly anticipating this moment for so long that it feels like the whole world is holding its breath in suspense. It’s electrifying! I’m filled with enthusiasm for everyone involved, including the developers and fellow gamers. Can’t wait!

“Interestingly, we began writing season 2 of the show even before its premiere. During the summer of 2021, while they were wrapping up filming for the end of the first season, we started working on the second season’s script. Ben Still and Dan Erickson shared as much footage as they could from episodes that were being edited at the time. However, we didn’t know if audiences would embrace the show or if it would spark a larger cultural conversation. It wasn’t until February 2022 when the show was finally released that we discovered its popularity. This unexpected success put pressure on us to make sure we connected the dots between seasons and delivered a compelling follow-up.

That was quite an enjoyable journey. In any creative pursuit, you never truly know if it’s successful until it’s done. You might sense that your work resonates with others, but there’s always uncertainty. This is often the bittersweet reality of art and creativity. What matters most is to have faith in our creations, even when others may not share that belief.

At the perfect moment, as the pandemic began easing, there was a widespread discussion about work dynamics, including office work vs remote work. The world was grappling with apprehension about resuming normal life, and it so happened that this topic was at the forefront of people’s thoughts. It was an uncanny coincidence that the release of my work aligned with this cultural zeitgeist. Sometimes, for art to resonate, it needs to align with the times, and in this case, it was simply remarkable.

In response to your query about the experience of leaping onto a moving train, I found it invigorating. Essentially, it was like having a 50-page guidebook that outlines our route, destination, and current position. We already knew the ending of the first season, and jumping off served as a launching point for what’s to come next.

As a gamer diving into an immersive game world, I soon realized that unraveling its mysteries was essential. Lumen, the heart of this game, felt alive, and I needed to understand its intentions, Mark’s unique role, and the enigma surrounding Mrs. Casey. It was like stepping back and reevaluating my strategy: “Alright, let’s break this down, what’s the plan here?

I’ll ask one blatantly quote-fishing question and then that’ll be it: Will we get the answers to any of those things you were just talking about in the second season? What are the goats? What are they refining, and so forth?

“I would probably be taken out to a shed and assassinated if I gave away anything, but I will say this: Dan — and Ben as well, the two of them are just like the dynamic duo — but Dan in particular, he’s got it all in his head. He’s not like the ‘let’s make this up as we go’ guy. There is a method to the madness of everything you see on Severance, and he’s thinking about it day and night. He’s mapped it out in his head and he’s going to tell you about it and you’re gonna sort of work with it and figure it out. He’s that sort of creator, he’s that sort of writer. And I said to him, ‘gosh, you know, this is almost like a video game. It’s like a map that you’re uncovering; this building, this town, this world…You’re just uncovering levels and characters and tools and doors and hallways and bosses.’ That’s how I sort of was able to make sense of it creatively. Let’s think of it that way. That’s not to say that we we didn’t hit walls in the room; believe me, we did. And you’re sort of banging your head against the wall trying to like, make sure like the Rubik’s cube sort of fits. So that’s all really round about beat around the bush way of answering your question. Dan’s the answer man. Trust in him, for sure.”

I have one more question for you, a more general question. I found this quote of yours when you were talking to the Vancouver Film School where you said that as an artist you were inspired by, and I quote, “blinding rage at the absolutely horrid state of the human condition.” Any particular parts of that condition you want to explore in your work going forward or already have?

In my artistic endeavors, I often express feelings of astonishment and indignation. This isn’t solely a political stance, but rather a reflection of the chaotic nature of humanity as a whole, including myself. If I were an extraterrestrial observer dropped onto Earth, observing all the turmoil and confusion we create, this would be the source of my inspiration. “Other Other” serves as a good illustration of this. I find myself saying, ‘look at us, we seem to dislike reality so much. This is more real than reality for many of us. So part of it is the intense frustration over our methods, but also curiosity; as writers or observers, we’re all anthropologists in a way, striving to comprehend and interpret why we behave the way we do.

Muhammad El Masri, it’s great that you could speak with us. Kudos on your recent project, “Other Other”, and we eagerly anticipate the next season of “Severance”.

Thank you, man. I appreciate all the time. That’s very kind.

Appreciate your time, Mohamad El Masri, for the insightful chat! You can catch “Other Other” right here. Regarding “Severance” season 2, fresh episodes will hit Apple TV+ from January 17, 2024, every Friday.

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2024-10-06 16:42