Key changes, karaoke and the importance of timing: The 2025 Grammys roundtable
As a seasoned songwriter with years of experience under my belt, I’ve always been drawn to the unique challenge that Christmas songs present. With a career spanning decades and a catalog filled with hits, it’s hard not to feel the pressure when attempting to create something new that can stand up to the everlasting classics.
Discussion about the aesthetic charm of musical waveforms, reminiscences of the late legend Quincy Jones, and the ongoing discussion over the impact of peer pressure on the fame of New Kids on the Block were topics that came up during informal conversation before a roundtable meeting in West Hollywood. This gathering was held by The Times with five musicians who had been nominated for awards at the 67th Grammy Awards in February.
Our panelists:
32-year-old Amy Allen, a talented songwriter, is up for several awards: Songwriter of the Year, Song of the Year for “Please Please Please” by Sabrina Carpenter, Album of the Year for Carpenter’s “Short n’ Sweet”, and Song Written for Visual Media for “Better Place” from the movie “Trolls Band Together”.
42-year-old musician, songwriter, and producer Annie Clark, known by her stage name St. Vincent, has received nominations in several categories: alternative music album for “All Born Screaming”, alternative rock performance for “Flea”, and both the rock song and rock performance categories for “Broken Man”.
John Legend, aged 45, is nominated for both a children’s music album (“My Favorite Dream”) and an arranging award for his collaboration with Jacob Collier and Tori Kelly on a rendition of “Bridge Over Troubled Water”.
42-year-old Daniel Nigro, a producer and songwriter, is nominated in several categories. He’s up for Producer of the Year for his collaboration with Rodrigo and Chappell Roan. His work on Roan’s album “The Rise and Fall of a Midwest Princess” has been nominated for Album of the Year. The songs “Good Luck, Babe!” by Roan is contending for Record and Song of the Year. Lastly, his song “Can’t Catch Me Now,” from “The Hunger Games: The Ballad of Songbirds & Snakes,” is in the running for Song Written for Visual Media.
24-year-old musical artist Willow Smith (whose surname is Smith), known for her talents in composing songs and producing music, is being recognized for her arrangement skills with the song “Big Feelings” from her album “Empathogen”. This album has also been nominated for an award in the category of engineered album, not including classical works.
A number of musicians were gathering together for the first time; some had known each other for quite some time, such as Nigro and Allen, who collaborated on a track for Rodrigo’s 2023 album “Guts”, and Clark and Legend, who previously joined forces to cover Minnie Riperton’s “Lovin’ You”, with an unexpected contribution from Zach Galifianakis. (It’s worth noting that the latter two also have a mutual acquaintance and collaborator in Sufjan Stevens, who produced Legend’s “My Favorite Dream.”) Regardless, they all concurred that in an industry often driven by rumors, they had only heard positive things about one another.
“There’s plenty of people I’ve heard bad things about,” Legend noted with a laugh. “Not this crew.”
1. ‘Obsessive about the sounds’
There appears to be a hint of true music enthusiast within all of you, would that description resonate?
Legend: I’ve always been a nerd. I was a 16-year-old going to college.
Clark: You went to college at 16?
Legend: And I was homeschooled before that.
Smith: Me too! Shout-out to homeschool kids.
Legend: We made it.
What does it mean to be a music nerd?
Smith: You study.
Characteristic: You value precision, have a keen interest in the past, and are committed to preserving and building upon the traditions you inherit.
Allen: And figuring out why your favorite things are your favorite things. That’s how I geek out: What’s actually happening in this Dolly song or this Tom Petty song?
Smith: Is it the chord progression? Is it the words they’re using? Like, what exactly?
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What’s a detail in a song by each of you that people might not recognize but that you love? For me, an example is the bridge in “Good Luck, Babe!” where you can hear Chappell panting in the background.
Nigro: That’s exactly the thought that crossed my mind. I intended for others to pick up on the fact that it seems as if she’s running out of breath.
Smith: It adds to the feeling.
As a passionate movie-goer and music enthusiast, allow me to share an enchanting scene that left an indelible mark in my cinematic journey. In the captivating soundtrack of the film “Safe,” there lies a melody that resonates deeply with me – a song simply titled “Safe.” The moment I cherish most occurs when the protagonist embarks on a breath-taking run, and Sufjan Stevens masterfully weaves an arpeggio that beautifully contrasts the direction of my movement. This seemingly trivial instance is, in fact, my favorite musical highlight from the entire album.
Smith: Each album I produce, I strive to bring a unique touch to my vocal delivery. For this particular album, I found myself immersed in Indigenous music and noticed a common technique among many Native American singers – an ancestral chant. This method can be heard on the track “Big Feelings.
As for me, since I self-produced my album, I took extra care to ensure every sound was meticulously attended to.
Clark: Extremely focused on the sounds – particularly keen about the sounds. On the track “Broken Man,” I invited my talented drummer friend Mark Guiliana over to experiment with it at my studio, where he improvised this amazing fill. Subsequently, we recorded drums and bass at Electrical Audio in Chicago.
Steve Albini’s studio.
Following Clark’s Words: May his spirit find peace. The tune he shared resonated deeply with me, and I requested Mark to recreate it using the unique sounds of Electrical Audio instead, keeping the essence alive.
Allen: I recall the moment when Jack [Antonoff] introduced a key change in “Please Please Please.” It sparked a lot of enthusiasm among us in the studio. Perhaps not everyone outside would notice the key change during the second verse, but many of my relatives and friends have commented on something that happens mid-song that gives them a lift. The ability to delve deeper into the musicality of pop music at this time is truly exhilarating.
“Out of all the changes this year, ‘Please Please Please’ stands out as particularly notable to me.” This way, it is clear that while it is remarkable, it is not necessarily the only significant change.
Allen: Not a lot of competition.
Clark: If Shania was in the room you might have some. Shania loves a key change.
Smith: Just keeps going up and up and up.
Allen: Same with Beyoncé in “Love on Top.”
Legend: “Love on Top” is the key change of the decade.
Anyone foolish enough to try “Love on Top” at karaoke?
Smith: Only the Talking Heads at karaoke. That’s my go-to.
Legend: I used to cover “Burning Down the House” in my early demo days.
Smith: For a singer, I feel like doing karaoke —
Allen: It’s a trap.
Legend: It’s not for professionals.
Allen: It’s a no-win situation. If you decide to eliminate it, people will criticize you as they say, “That person is harsh.” On the other hand, if you don’t act decisively, they might question your commitment, saying, “John, why didn’t you take a stronger stance?
User: The first time I tried karaoke was when I was around 34 due to being incredibly nervous about it. However, I do recall an incident at my cousin’s wedding, which took place approximately 10-12 years ago. On that occasion, a timbale player was present alongside the DJ. Since I had been drinking quite heavily, I even picked up the timbales and started playing them impromptu. My father, who is also a musician, commented on my performance by saying, “For someone who claims to be a musician, you’re really off-key.
2. ‘Unruly in a good way’
What’s a musical era you wish you’d been around for?
Smith: Earth, Wind & Fire, Ohio Players, that whole era.
Personally Speaking: Oh, how I wish I could have been around during Stevie Wonder’s mid-’70s album era! Those masterpieces, which earned him three consecutive Album of the Year Grammys, were a profound inspiration to me as I was growing up.
Clark: It shows.
Allen: It’s fascinating to ponder over vocalists of yesteryears – their need for immediate synchronization from the get-go was immense. Observing artists lay down harmonies simultaneously, sharing a single microphone, requiring them to adjust their pitch to match everyone else in the studio.
In My Humble Opinion: In this captivating cinematic journey, the filmmakers brilliantly exploit the boundless potential of technology, masterfully weaving it into the narrative. The actors were tasked with a challenging assignment, and they rose to the occasion, delivering performances that truly resonate.
Back in my twenties, I used to be captivated by Van Morrison’s “Astral Weeks” album, playing it repeatedly. Recently, I revisited this classic and was taken aback by the seemingly off-key guitar riffs that were once so familiar to me. For the first time in years, these imperfections grated on my ears, almost painfully. Yet, I found myself yearning for the raw, authentic charm that once captivated me.
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How’d you deal with that desire for perfection on the Chappell album? It doesn’t sound —
Legend: It feels unruly in a good way.
In my case, the moment has arrived where I engage with the tune, letting it play and experiencing its emotional impact on me. After listening, I step back and return later with the thought: “That vocal’s rushing, I need to adjust the vocal.” It feels instinctive, but there’s definitely some post-processing taking place.
Legend: Are you writing on these songs too?
Nigro: Yeah.
Legend: When you’re in your songwriter moment versus your producer moment, what’s the difference?
Nigro: When it comes to writing songs, I don’t concern myself with the production aspect. It’s fortunate that when I collaborate with Olivia or Chappell, they share the same mindset – their primary focus is on creating a song. At times, when working with Chappell, we might add a beat just so we can establish the tempo for our writing process.
Smith: That’s so cool. So you record the whole song with no production?
Nigro commented that “Good Luck, Babe!” consisted merely of a kick drum, a snare, vocals, and a synthesizer – there were no chord progressions or variations between the verse and the chorus.
Is that cheating?
John: I’ve been examining each of Madonna’s ’80s hits, focusing on the chord progressions out of pure enjoyment, and it’s a timeless technique.
Legend: We’re not nerds at all.
So then what distinguishes the chorus from the verse?
As a music enthusiast, I’ve discovered that tweaking the melody while keeping the chord progression intact can create a whole new vibe!
As a movie buff, I’ve noticed that sometimes, even though the tunes for both the verse and the chorus in popular songs are identical, as seen in Calvin Harris and Rihanna’s “We Found Love”, the same chords and melody persist throughout. Yet, this repetition doesn’t hinder the song from feeling like it’s moving forward, propelling us along with its rhythm.
Allen: Tale as old as time, that trick. But it’s really hard to do.
3. ‘The best version of herself’
In the previous year, the song “Cruel Summer” by Taylor Swift, which Annie also contributed to, reached number one on the Hot 100 chart four years after its release, largely due to online enthusiasm making it popular. This is a trend we see today.
Smith previously released the track “Wait a Minute!” some time ago. Interestingly, TikTok has recently shown great affection for this song. By the way, I’ve actually released three albums since then!
Nigro: “Pink Pony Club” did that. It’s going now, and it came out almost five years ago.
When an old song takes off, you ever hear something in it you wish you could change?
Nigro found it astonishing that he could make changes, even six months after the release of “Femininomenon” with Chappell. He admitted he wasn’t primarily a dance music producer and felt the original drums in the recording lacked the desired impact. Each time he listened to it, he was frustrated by the improperly mixed snare sound. Over time, his dislike for it grew. When it came time to officially release the record, he reached out to a friend: “Would you be so kind to alter the kick and snare in this track for me? I only have about a week before we need to submit the vinyl.” Eventually, they replaced the original drums with new ones.
Annie, you just remade your latest album in a Spanish-language version.
Clark: Sí.
Why?
Clark: Over the years, I’ve had the privilege of performing extensively in Mexico, South America, and Spain. What continually amazed me was that people would sing along to my songs, even if it wasn’t their native language. This inspired me to think, “If they can make an effort to connect with my music, perhaps I can reciprocate by learning some of their languages.
Legend: How much did you find yourself revising the lyric to make it sing better in Spanish?
Clark: It’s wildly different — kind of a full rewrite.
Music
On Sunday, the global pop sensation concluded her two-year world tour at Vancouver’s BC Place with a spectacular performance.
When you’re writing with an artist, Amy, do you think in terms of absorbing their language?
Allen: About six years back, when I was deeply engrossed in songwriting, I used to listen to an artist’s intentions and then attempt to understand their thoughts, writing the song as if it were coming from them. However, around two or three years ago, I had a significant realization – I was unnecessarily complicating things. Why not simply take what resonates with me when they express their feelings, and then write in tandem with them? Sabrina is an exception because our connection is so strong that it makes the process much easier for me.
Implication: It appears everyone enjoyed themselves. Lately, my daughter has been quite fascinated with Sabrina, so you can often hear her playing it in the car.
As a cinema enthusiast, I’d rephrase it like this: Bouncing lines back and forth on set has unleashed her true potential. What I truly yearn for in my profession isn’t crafting the wittiest quips, but rather fostering an organic connection where those lines flow naturally from within us.
Smith: It’s coming from the relationship that you guys have created with each other.
Legend: I love that.
Allen: It took me a long time as a songwriter to get there with an artist.
4. ‘The vision is clear’
Title artists such as Sabrina Chappell and Charli XCX, who have toiled diligently over the years, achieved significant success this year. Could this narrative be seen as a testament to artistic growth, or is it time for the music industry to celebrate its role in nurturing talent?
Legend: I don’t feel like that’s what’s happening.
Clark: Can they reach their backs with those wads of cash in their hands? Is that possible?
Explanation: In essence, the role of labels has shifted significantly. They no longer hold the same level of control or authority as before. Instead, it’s the audience that wields a considerable amount of power in today’s context.
Smith: Social media plays a significant role in this. I believe it’s about finding a balance: There are instances where the focus is solely on creating outstanding art, and there are times when that’s not the primary concern at all. We’ve all experienced the tight constraints of expectations regarding what might become a successful record.
Nigro: Every artist claims they don’t mind. However, there are artists who strive to please everyone and there are artists who simply do whatever suits them best. I believe that ultimately, the power lies with the artists, but if they lack clarity about their desires, they can quickly find themselves entangled in major label politics.
Smith: Rigmarole.
Nigro: It’s easy to get lost in that. Everyone wants to be successful.
Seems worth pointing out that Sabrina broke through with her sixth studio album.
Clark: That’s her sixth album?!
What does that tell you about a career in pop?
Clark: It’s saying I got a shot [laughs]. In other words, if you practice something frequently, you tend to improve. For instance, a surgeon after their sixth operation is more skilled than one performing their first. However, in music, it seems people often argue that the first performance is the best.
Legend: But sometimes it’s true — sometimes the first one is the best one.
Clark: And sometimes you pierce somebody’s trachea.
Music
In February, the singer-songwriter received a Grammy award for her traditional pop vocal album. Currently, she’s headlining a cinema concert film that was filmed at the Hollywood Bowl.
Willow, does the release of your first single at age 10 still resonate with you as a significant moment in your musical journey today?
Smith: Essentially, my music’s message has consistently been about self-love, love for others, and living life to the fullest. Therefore, “Whip My Hair” aligns with what I stand for now, as it reflects my personal growth. If you recall, my initial album wouldn’t be produced the same way today. However, just like Annie mentioned, practice makes perfection – the more you do something, the better you refine it.
Legend: It may take some time to discover one’s unique style, and I find myself reflecting on Sabrina’s six albums because now it seems she has finally found her voice. I’m not implying that the earlier albums were lacking, but they had a somewhat unclear identity as an artist. However, when I listen to these new songs, they embody who she is as an individual, and her artistic vision is evidently clear.
Allen: Moreover, it’s crucial that the world is prepared. A multitude of events must unfold for a message such as “Good Luck, Babe!” or “Please Please Please” to create the significant influence we aim for.
Nigro stated that they included the message “Good Luck, Sweetheart!” during the creation of Chappell’s album. However, he believed that if it had been released alongside the album initially, it might not have achieved the same success as it did later on.
Smith: Timing is so important.
Nigro: And I feel like Sabrina needed “Nonsense” to happen for the next iteration to take place.
Allen: It was all stepping stones.
5. ‘I wish I made this song’
Present company excluded, what’s a song or an album that you loved this year?
Description: I’m fond of Tyler, the Creator’s album because his mother’s voice weaves throughout each song, adding a narrative touch while detailing a deeply personal journey.
As a music enthusiast, when Esperanza Spalding and Milton Nascimento released their album, I found myself immersed in the dark, eagerly absorbing it deep into my very core, cell by cell, right within the comforts of my room.
Nigro: The first time I heard “Million Dollar Baby,” I was like, Oh man, I wish I made this song.
Allen: I’ve been really enjoying the latest Adrianne Lenker album released this year. It breaks all the norms that I, as a pop songwriter, typically follow.
John: I’ve given a spin to MJ Lenderman’s latest album, “Manning Fireworks.” It’s incredibly inventive and witty, yet it manages to keep its emotional core intact amidst all that creativity.
It’s that time of year for festive tunes! As it happens, you’ve produced a Christmas album, John, and you’re currently on a tour during the holiday season.
Legend: Call me Father Christmas.
Have any of the rest of you tried to write a Christmas song?
Year after year, I reach out to my collaborators and propose, “How about composing a Christmas tune?” To which they usually respond, “Absolutely!” However, our plans for a festive melody often remain unrealized.
Legend: I said that every year for 14 years until I finally made one.
Clark: I composed a track that could pass as a Christmas song, though it’s not entirely traditional. You can find it in my latest album, titled “… At the Holiday Party.” The tune carries a melancholic and somber vibe.
Allen: That definitely counts.
Smith: Should I ever compose a Christmas carol, I imagine it would need to convey a somber or even pagan atmosphere.
Clark: You should absolutely write that.
Are Christmas songs hard to write?
Observation: The longevity of Christmas songs is remarkable, as many have persisted for over five decades. This means any fresh song must be exceptional to measure up against the timeless classics. These oldies remain popular because people continue to cherish them. Attempting to create a new piece that can stand shoulder-to-shoulder with such a storied canon is no easy task.
Clark: Eat s—, Bing Crosby.
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2024-12-16 14:33